The Great Debate That Made the U.S. Constitution. Madison James

the first proposition, and it was agreed on motion of Mr. Butler seconded by Mr. Randolph, to pass on to the third, which underwent a discussion, less however on its general merits than on the force and extent of the particular terms national & supreme.

      Mr. Charles Pinkney wished to know of Mr. Randolph, whether he meant to abolish the State Governments altogether. Mr. R. replied that he meant by these general propositions merely to introduce the particular ones which explained the outlines of the system he had in view.

      Mr. Butler said he had not made up his mind on the subject, and was open to the light which discussion might throw on it. After some general observations he concluded with saying that he had opposed the grant of powers to Congress heretofore, because the whole power was vested in one body. The proposed distribution of the powers into different bodies changed the case, and would induce him to go great lengths.

General Pinkney1 expressed a doubt whether the act of Congress recommending the Convention, or the Commissions of the Deputies to it, could authorize a discussion of a system founded on different principles from the federal Constitution.

Mr. Gerry2 seemed to entertain the same doubt.

      Mr. Gouverneur Morris explained the distinction between a federal and national, supreme, Government; the former being a mere compact resting on the good faith of the parties; the latter having a compleat and compulsive operation. He contended that in all Communities there must be one supreme power, and one only.

      Mr. Mason observed that the present confederation was not only deficient in not providing for coercion & punishment against delinquent States; but argued very cogently that punishment could not in the nature of things be executed on the States collectively, and therefore that such a Government was necessary as could directly operate on individuals, and would punish those only whose guilt required it.

Mr. Sherman3 who took his seat today, admitted that the Confederation had not given sufficient power to Congress and that additional powers were necessary; particularly that of raising money which he said would involve many other powers. He admitted also that the General & particular jurisdictions ought in no case to be concurrent. He seemed however not to be disposed to make too great inroads on the existing system; intimating as one reason, that it would be wrong to lose every amendment, by inserting such as would not be agreed to by the States.

It was moved by Mr. Read,4 seconded by Mr. Cotesworth Pinkney, to postpone the 3d proposition last offered by Mr. Randolph viz that a national Government ought to be established consisting of a supreme Legislative Executive and Judiciary, in order to take up the following, — viz. "Resolved that in order to carry into execution the Design of the States in forming this Convention, and to accomplish the objects proposed by the Confederation a more effective Government consisting of a Legislative, Executive and Judiciary, ought to be established." The motion to postpone for this purpose was lost:

      Yeas. Massachusetts, Connecticut, Delaware, S. Carolina — 4.

       Nays. N. Y. Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina — 4.

      On the question as moved by Mr. Butler, on the third proposition it was resolved in Committee of whole that a national Government ought to be established consisting of a supreme Legislative Executive & Judiciary, — Massachusetts being ay. — Connect. — no. N. York divided (Col. Hamilton ay. Mr. Yates no.) Pennsylvania ay. Delaware ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.

      The following Resolution, being the 2d of those proposed by Mr. Randolph was taken up, viz. — "that the rights of suffrage in the National Legislature ought to be proportioned to the quotas of contribution, or to the number of free inhabitants, as the one or the other rule may seem best in different cases."

Mr. Madison5 observing that the words, "or to the number of free inhabitants," might occasion debates which would divert the Committee from the general question whether the principle of representation should be changed, moved that they might be struck out.

      Mr. King observed that the quotas of contribution which would alone remain as the measure of representation, would not answer, because waving every other view of the matter, the revenue might hereafter be so collected by the General Government that the sums respectively drawn from the States would not appear, and would besides be continually varying.

      Mr. Madison admitted the propriety of the observation, and that some better rule ought to be found.

      Col. Hamilton moved to alter the resolution so as to read "that the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought to be proportioned to the number of free inhabitiants." Mr. Spaight seconded the motion.

      It was then moved that the Resolution be postponed, which was agreed to.

      Mr. Randolph and Mr. Madison then moved the following resolution — "that the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought to be proportioned."

      It was moved and seconded to amend it by adding "and not according to the present system" — which was agreed to.

      It was then moved & seconded to alter the resolution so as to read "that the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought not to be according to the present system."

      It was then moved & seconded to postpone the Resolution moved by Mr. Randolph & Mr. Madison, which being agreed to:

      Mr. Madison, moved, in order to get over the difficulties, the following resolution — "that the equality of suffrage established by the articles of Confederation ought not to prevail in the national Legislature, and "that an equitable ratio of representation ought to be substituted." This was seconded by Mr. Gouverneur Morris, and being generally relished, would have been agreed to; when,

      Mr. Reed moved that the whole clause relating to the point of Representation be postponed; reminding the Committee that the deputies from Delaware were restrained by their commission from assenting to any change of the rule of suffrage, and in case such a change should be fixed on, it might become their duty to retire from the Convention.

      Mr. Gouverneur Morris observed that the valuable assistance of those members could not be lost without real concern, and that so early a proof of discord in the Convention as the secession of a State, would add much to the regret; that the change proposed was however so fundamental an article in a national Government, that it could not be dispensed with.

      Mr. Madison observed that whatever reason might have existed for the equality of suffrage when the Union was a federal one among sovereign States, it must cease when a National Government should be put into the place. In the former case, the acts of Congress depended so much for their efficacy on the cooperation of the States, that these had a weight both within & without Congress, nearly in proportion to their extent and importance. In the latter case, as the acts of the General Government would take effect without the intervention of the State legislatures, a vote from a small State would have the same efficacy & importance as a vote from a large one, and there was the same reason for different numbers of representatives from different States, as from Counties of different extents within particular States. He suggested as an expedient for at once taking the sense of the members on this point and saving the Delaware deputies from embarrassment, that the question should be taken in Committee, and the clause on report to the House, be postponed without a question there. This however did not appear to satisfy Mr. Read.

      By several it was observed that no just construction of the Act of Delaware, could require or justify a secession of her deputies, even if the resolution were to be carried thro' the House as well as the Committee. It was finally agreed however that the clause should be postponed: it being understood that in the event the proposed change of representation would certainly be agreed to, no objection or difficulty being started from any other quarter than from Delaware.

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