U.S. Constitution: Foundation & Evolution (Including the Biographies of the Founding Fathers). Madison James

he meant to pay a copper towards the domestic debt: — R. Island has refused to send members — the cry there is for a good government after they have paid their debts in depreciated paper: — first demolish the Philistines (i. e. their creditors) then for propiety.

      "N. Hampshire has not paid a shilling, since peace, & does not ever mean to pay on to all eternity: — if it was attempted to tax the people for the domestic debt 500 Shays would arise in a fortnight. — In N. York they pay well because they can do it by plundering N. Jersey & Connecticut. — Jersey will go great lengths from motives of revenge and Interest: Pensylvany will join provided you let the sessions of the Executive of America be fixed in Philadelphia & give her other advantages in trade to compensate for the loss of State power. I shall make no observations on the Southern States, but I think they will be (perhaps from different motives) as little disposed to part with efficient power as any in the Union…." — William Grayson to James Monroe, New York, May 29, 1787. Monroe MSS.

      Wednesday May 30

       Table of Contents

      Roger Sherman (from Connecticut) took his seat.

      The House went into Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union. Mr. Gorham was elected to the Chair by Ballot.

      The propositions of Mr. Randolph which had been referred to the Committee being taken up. He moved on the suggestion of Mr. G. Morris, that the first of his propositions to wit "Resolved that the articles of Confederation ought to be so corrected & enlarged, as to accomplish the objects proposed by their institution; namely, common defence, security of liberty, and general welfare, — should be postponed, in order to consider the 3 following:

      1. that a union of the States merely federal will not accomplish the objects proposed by the articles of Confederation, namely common defence, security of liberty, & general welfare.

      2. that no treaty or treaties among the whole or part of the States, as individual Sovereignties, would be sufficient.

      3. that a national Government ought to be established consisting of a supreme Legislative, Executive & Judiciary.

      The motion for postponing was seconded by Mr. Gouverneur Morris and unanimously agreed to.

      Some verbal criticisms were raised against the first proposition, and it was agreed on motion of Mr. Butler seconded by Mr. Randolph, to pass on to the third, which underwent a discussion, less however on its general merits than on the force and extent of the particular terms national & supreme.

      Mr. Charles Pinkney wished to know of Mr. Randolph, whether he meant to abolish the State Governments altogether. Mr. R. replied that he meant by these general propositions merely to introduce the particular ones which explained the outlines of the system he had in view.

      Mr. Butler said he had not made up his mind on the subject, and was open to the light which discussion might throw on it. After some general observations he concluded with saying that he had opposed the grant of powers to Congress heretofore, because the whole power was vested in one body. The proposed distribution of the powers into different bodies changed the case, and would induce him to go great lengths.

General Pinkney1 expressed a doubt whether the act of Congress recommending the Convention, or the Commissions of the Deputies to it, could authorize a discussion of a system founded on different principles from the federal Constitution.

Mr. Gerry2 seemed to entertain the same doubt.

      Mr. Gouverneur Morris explained the distinction between a federal and national, supreme, Government; the former being a mere compact resting on the good faith of the parties; the latter having a compleat and compulsive operation. He contended that in all Communities there must be one supreme power, and one only.

      Mr. Mason observed that the present confederation was not only deficient in not providing for coercion & punishment against delinquent States; but argued very cogently that punishment could not in the nature of things be executed on the States collectively, and therefore that such a Government was necessary as could directly operate on individuals, and would punish those only whose guilt required it.

Mr. Sherman3 who took his seat today, admitted that the Confederation had not given sufficient power to Congress and that additional powers were necessary; particularly that of raising money which he said would involve many other powers. He admitted also that the General & particular jurisdictions ought in no case to be concurrent. He seemed however not to be disposed to make too great inroads on the existing system; intimating as one reason, that it would be wrong to lose every amendment, by inserting such as would not be agreed to by the States.

It was moved by Mr. Read,4 seconded by Mr. Cotesworth Pinkney, to postpone the 3d proposition last offered by Mr. Randolph viz that a national Government ought to be established consisting of a supreme Legislative Executive and Judiciary, in order to take up the following, — viz. "Resolved that in order to carry into execution the Design of the States in forming this Convention, and to accomplish the objects proposed by the Confederation a more effective Government consisting of a Legislative, Executive and Judiciary, ought to be established." The motion to postpone for this purpose was lost:

      Yeas. Massachusetts, Connecticut, Delaware, S. Carolina — 4.

       Nays. N. Y. Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina — 4.

      On the question as moved by Mr. Butler, on the third proposition it was resolved in Committee of whole that a national Government ought to be established consisting of a supreme Legislative Executive & Judiciary, — Massachusetts being ay. — Connect. — no. N. York divided (Col. Hamilton ay. Mr. Yates no.) Pennsylvania ay. Delaware ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.

      The following Resolution, being the 2d of those proposed by Mr. Randolph was taken up, viz. — "that the rights of suffrage in the National Legislature ought to be proportioned to the quotas of contribution, or to the number of free inhabitants, as the one or the other rule may seem best in different cases."

Mr. Madison5 observing that the words, "or to the number of free inhabitants," might occasion debates which would divert the Committee from the general question whether the principle of representation should be changed, moved that they might be struck out.

      Mr. King observed that the quotas of contribution which would alone remain as the measure of representation, would not answer, because waving every other view of the matter, the revenue might hereafter be so collected by the General Government that the sums respectively drawn from the States would not appear, and would besides be continually varying.

      Mr. Madison admitted the propriety of the observation, and that some better rule ought to be found.

      Col. Hamilton moved to alter the resolution so as to read "that the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought to be proportioned to the number of free inhabitiants." Mr. Spaight seconded the motion.

      It was then moved that the Resolution be postponed, which was agreed to.

      Mr. Randolph and Mr. Madison then moved the following resolution — "that the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought to be proportioned."

      It was moved and seconded to amend it by adding "and not according to the present system" — which was agreed to.

      It was then moved & seconded to alter the resolution so as to read "that the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought not to be according to the present system."

      It was then moved & seconded to postpone